A transformation is going to happen

Hi Moya, hi Marie, thanks for being here. Could you please start by introducing yourselves and your work?

Moya: My name is Moya Michael. I was born and raised in Johannesburg, South Africa. I’m based here in Brussels, and I’ve been living in Europe for… too long [laughs]. I’m a mother, dancer, performer, choreographer, maker, person. I have a performance coming up, from November 21st to 24th at Wiels. It is Like A Finger Pointing a Way to the Moon [Sculpturance] has elements of movement, and sculpture, and is also very visual—I would call it an encounter, in terms of my lineage and heritage. I’ve been working around coming into my identity for years now, which has encouraged me to get to know where I come from on a much deeper level. For this piece, I connected with the San people of Namibia, who are one of the most over-researched populations on the planet. My team and I talked about the notion of 'speaking nearby', or in this case 'dancing nearby': it's about not objectifying the people that we're working with, but rather about being close. I didn't go to Namibia to learn a dance or a song; just because I come from these people doesn't mean that I can appropriate. I think about making this community and family, to which I feel very close now, visible—without exoticising them, because I've been part of it myself. And so there is this question of how to position myself because the work is not only me, it’s also the people that I've encountered in Namibia who are now family.

I didn't go to Namibia to learn a dance or a song; just because I come from these people doesn't mean that I can appropriate

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Marie: As for myself, my name is Marie Umuhoza, I was born in Nairobi, Kenya, but raised in Belgium. I've been living in Brussels for ten years now, and I define my practice as creative producing. I write, I think and speak. I collaborate with artists, I used to work at Decoratelier and I’m an associate dramaturge at La Bellone. I also am taking care of the artistic direction and programmation of a festival called Africa is in the Future, which is happening this week [6 to 9 November; editor’s note] that focuses on the artistic narratives of the African diaspora and it’s continent in La Bellone. This year's edition is about ‘emerging’, as in: what does it mean to emerge? That word has been used so often to define the work of black Afro-diasporic artists, and sometimes it traps us, leaving no space for creativity. This edition is also a question to myself, to reflect on how I navigate Brussels and how my work is perceived in this city. I also have a drive to get out of my comfort zone, so I really resonate with what you’re saying.

Moya: I've been working a lot as a performer and dancer in other people's work, so when it comes to my own practice, I kind of consider myself emerging as well. And although I know that I worked my ass off to be where I am today, I’m very aware of the privilege I have to be working with these institutions. This piece was first shown at KVS in Brussels last April, and now for the first time, I’m transferring it to the gallery at Wiels. I'm literally out of my comfort zone, in this kind of liminal space, because I'm so used to working in theatre.

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Marie: Do you see this ‘liminal space’ as a symbolic protective space for your ideas, or do you see it as an in-between that you will later open?

Moya: It's more like something in between comfort and discomfort. The liminality is also in the materials that I use because there are some elements from previous work that I have recycled for this creation. One of the main themes this time has been transformation. I’m also thinking about the proximity with the audience and how to move them through the space, creating that transformation and that in-betweenness for them.

Marie: I was asking you about the liminal space as a protective space because it’s something I feel myself. I can only imagine that when an invitation comes from a classical institution, they might have an idea of what it is you would do before you even do it. That's why I was curious as to how you protect yourself from this ‘invitation with a projection’, so to speak.

Moya: I do feel like it comes from an honest place. I know that my work has been framed by others in instances when that projection has happened, when that gaze is on you. But I don't make my work for the colonial gaze. I know who I'm making the work for. Even if the majority of my audience in this context are going to be white, I think eventually you have to just let go of that.

I don't make my work for the colonial gaze. I know who I'm making the work for

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Marie: I'm looking forward to being inspired. I'm working right now on a performance, by Martha Canga Antonio with Vivi Focquet, that will premiere in December 2025. We did a try-out last summer in Decoratelier and we took the audience on stage with us. I really see this as a translation of what I try to do with my curatorial work, which is taking audiences from one space, or one state, to another.

Moya: I think the transformation that happens during a performance is a way to help the audience perceive and translate as they go along, even if they might not understand everything.

Marie: That’s beautiful.

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You both seem to have practices that involve working with a lot of different people. Can you tell us a bit more about how that happens?

Moya: Nicely [laughs].

Marie: I would say that I almost only work with people. The most solitary time I can think of in my practice is when I’m writing in my notebook. All my work starts from a form of collectivity, or community—depending, because collectivity is not community, I've learned. I would say I am a curious person. So most of my collaborations and connections start from curiosity that grows into interest, that then grows into something else, it's just always taking different shapes.

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Moya: I like the fact that you mentioned curiosity. I’m the same, I think. I prefer to work collaboratively. When I’m working with theatres or institutions like these, there are resources, and what I try to do in these kinds of spaces is to bring people in who wouldn't necessarily be there otherwise. And then you learn about each other through the process, you're transforming together, you're processing together.

Marie: As a curator, I work with a lot of our people, marginalised people. I have a responsibility towards them. I think creativity is often seen as an infinite resource. But it needs to be sustained, it needs to be nurtured. It needs to be supported. And we need to value it ourselves as well.

Moya: Yes, that’s something that I’ve come to learn, how to value my own work, how to value my own experience, and how to honour people’s stories. Every story really matters.

I think creativity is often seen as an infinite resource. But it needs to be sustained, it needs to be nurtured

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Thank you both so much. Moya, can you briefly tell the public what to expect during this ‘sculpturance’?

Moya: Just to be open to an experience. And to honour the space and the meeting and the transformation that's going to happen. And I think I have to expect that from myself as well.

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<div class="editorial-banner"> <div class=“editorial-credits”> @___moyamichael___  / @hailmaji / @wiels_brussels <br/> Tickets & info </div></div>